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OVERDRIVES PTOs AND WINCHES
wohleb wrote: I have a 26 tooth Warn Overdrive but need a 29 tooth. Any suggestions? Want to trade or????
astarcher wrote: I'd like to get an overdrive myself but haven't gotten to the point where I've looked seriously at them yet. How can I tell what tooth count do I need for my transfer case? I don't have a 29 tooth to trade (and don't know which one I need yet) so what's "????" ? If I need the 26 tooth, I might be interested in
wohleb wrote: The Advanced Adapters Web page has a catalog that lists the warn overdrive exact replica and all technical info. They also have an excellent tech line. Most output gears are the 26 tooth. I could change over my overdrive to 26 tooth but the part is pricey!
James Roney wrote: It's cheaper to just change the transfer case to 26 tooth model. In California, the going price is about $100.00 for a good used one. Advanced sells the change parts, but its pricey!
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Rod Smith wrote: I forgot to mention the overdrive situation. My PU has a Saturn overdrive made by Advance Adaptors in Paso Robles CA. They are the same units as the old Warn overdrives. Advance bought the rights to make the overdrive from Warn. Most old O/D's have seen better days and the cost of rebuilding them is not much different then buying a new one. Another O/D used to be on the market called Husky. Be advised that although they look alike, they do not have interchangeable parts!
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OD WITH PTO
Michael wrote: Does anyone know if you can install the Saturn overdrive and keep the PTO wench? I look forward to hearing from y'all.
Rick Stivers wrote: Hi Michael, You lucked out, I just back to my office in CA where I left the disk with this info. This subject was discussed about 2 months ago and here is what transpired.
see Dave's Koenig PTO winch at:
There's some more PTO pictures/info at:
Jeff Gent wrote: "AA used to but no longer produces the adapter that will allow hooking up a PTO drive to the back of the OD. They keep putting it in their catalog though. They sent me to someone on the east coast who makes these for a nominal fee (I remember about $300). I have the info at home but call AA and they should give it to you. In other words it is possible but may not be practical. I hope to get one myself at some point since I prefer having the ability to change gears between the motor and PTO though to be on the safe side I took advantage of an opportunity to get a PTO drive for my SM420 to use in the interim.
I will also say in case you find one of the original ones that I was told by some guy who dealt with old jeep stuff that the Ramsey adapter could be used on a Koenig PTO but that an adapter for the Koenig could not be used on a Ramsey PTO.
Richard Grover wrote: "I posted this a few months ago, but some of you may not have seen it. Advance Adapters told me they did not have, and would not ever get any more, PTO adapters. They have dropped that item. There is a guy in CT (sorry I'll have to sift through old email files to find a name) who machined his own and has offered to make them for anybody else who wants one for $385. I have rough specs, and my bro-in-law got a mill, but it isn't setup yet, on which he intends to make an adapter (among many other things). If someone has a better story, I'd love to hear it.
Landen Schooler wrote: "Ok, I have 2 OD-PTO adapters. (no they aren't for sale, I'm using them)The OD has to be in direct drive for the PTO to work
Merl wrote: "I've noticed a good deal of PTO discussion on classicjeep of late. Just how do you identify the "correct" PTO for an application? Is there any literature on the web about this?"
LOWEKS wrote: "For those of you looking for a PTO adapter to attach to your overdrive they are now being made by Steve Ruhl in CT.. He obtained the original blueprints from Advanced Adapters and has started production. His adapters are internally identical to the originals but differ on the exterior since he is using machined rather than cast aluminum stock. He has an advertisement in this months "Willys World". I gave him a call but at the time he didn't know how much they will cost. He says he will have a price later this week. If you're interested you can reach Steve at 860-345-3010. Steve Ruhl PO Box725 Durham, CT 06422
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? wrote: Where do I find drive shafts for my PTO?
Rod Smith wrote: I have a 59 PU and a 71 CJ5. The CJ5 has a Ramsey PTO front winch which I installed. As to PTO drive lines, just make it up with new parts. You can buy pre-splined shafts of various lengths so get one that is close and cut it to fit. U joints are also available off the shelf items from industrial supply houses.
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Dirtman wrote: what do u use for a sand anchor? A friend of mine uses a 20 lb Danforth boat anchor and 20 ft of chain. Seems to work great. Dirt Man
Richard Grover wrote: This one is a off-roader's appliance, called a Pull-Pal. It folds to about 4 feet long with a spade at one end, and it's a lot lighter than 20 lbs. It needs a little guidance getting started but it goes completely under in a hard pull. We hooked the winch cable directly to the eye in the front end. We sank his truck to the frame in blown sand, then pulled it out without even airing down the tires. His Warn 8000 was really lugging down and that cable was snapping as the wires found a new lay in the twists.
My friend used a boat anchor before. He says this is much better. It's his latest toy. He is into single vehicle expeditions in Baja California, with lots of beach driving. He usually takes his wife, but she's going to Paris, so I get to tag along. He does 3 or 4 trips a year, and always makes it back. He takes two spare tires, a puncture plugger, an inner tube, on-board air, oversized gas tank and a couple of Jerry cans of gas and a couple of water, dual batteries with an isolator (so he can only run one dead with his accessories), receiver-mounted electric winch for pulling forward or back, heat exchanger in engine for hot showers, solar battery charger, GPS,... (and American cigarettes to share with the army checkpoints along la frontera - he doesn't smoke).
What would it be like to have money for everything you ever dreamed of to make your truck invincible? As I said, I'll probably ride with him and leave my Willys home. :-( Not that I don't think my Willys is a good truck, I'm just not sure it is ready to drive across basalt, cactus and open dunes in a foreign country with no chance of finding a service station, parts store, or even a llantera. My Willys has yet to strand me, and I want to keep it that way.
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VARIOUS PTO QUESTIONS
Merl wrote: Are all Spicer-18 transfer case PTOs compatible? For example is there a different model for the 26 tooth input gear transfer case and the 27 and 29 tooth? Or is the only difference based on the front, rear, or front/rear PTO drive shaft outputs?
Steven Dunlop wrote: They are compatible, there is a large diameter, short length splined coupling under the PTO cover on the transfer case that engages with the PTO.
Merl wrote: What exactly is at the end of a PTO drive shaft? Will the gearbox (I assume some sort of gearbox) at the PTO shaft end be different for different applications?
Steven Dunlop wrote: You get a different gearcase on the transfer case end depending on what you're trying to do. This bolts in where the PTO cover (upper left rear, has 5 or 6 bolts holding it down) is on the transfer case. Typically it includes a clutch mechanism of some kind and gears or a chain and sprocket assembly (all inside the case) to get the output shaft down low enough to use. It engages with the gear on the transfer case using the splined connection mentioned above. The one I have has a sliding arrangement and uses the splined coupling as a clutch.
The original PTO adapter was for a rear-mounted 540 RPM splined PTO, which was used for running agricultural equipment and the like. A gear reducer and belt pulley could be bolted onto this for running stationary machinery of the day. For running winches, there is a different adapter; they come in several styles with either one or two controls (for both front and rear winches).
Merl wrote: What are the advantages/disadvantages of a front vs. rear mounted PTO winch? Looks like a front mounted PTO *anything* would cause ground clearance problems due to the drive shaft. True?
Steven Dunlop wrote: An old friend of my families, crazy guy named Hugo, drove his Jeep like a madman back in the '40s and '50s. He thought a rear mounted winch was useless since you can't really get THROUGH an obstruction with it. I guess this demonstrates his style of driving.
The front PTO shaft actually runs above the front axle tube and does not create a ground clearance problem itself. However, its use requires rerouting the exhaust pipe to run below the frame crossmember leaving it vulnerable to ground damage and adversely affecting the breakover angle. It still isn't as low as the axle tubes, though. Hanger bearings are also required in some applications.
Merl wrote: As you can probably tell I'm interested in hearing about PTO winches, so any info on these would be a help to me. I'm not totally set on getting one, just in the information gathering stage. Thanks.
Steven Dunlop wrote: I have pictures and some notes on my web page at http://www2.bitstream.net/~dunlop/sjd-home.html that you might want to look at. For practical use, you are probably better off getting a high capacity 12V alternator and an electric winch. This will end up costing less as well.
The advent of 12V electrical systems with high capacity alternators is what made PTO winches obsolete for trail vehicles. Too much cost and too many headaches routing the shaft.
Tom Jacoby wrote: I guess it depends on the vehicle. On my '61 Utility Delivery, the PTO shaft passes up along the left (driver's) side of the engine, thru a hanger that's attached to the bellhousing. No problem with the L6-226 exhaust as it's on the right (passenger) side. My PTO-driven winch has three speeds forward and one reverse, all driven by that magnificent "Super Hurricane" engine - can an electric or hydraulic winch match that? :-)
Tom Jacoby wrote: No, I didn't want to get involved in a religious war. I'm interested in keeping my "classic" Willys as near original as possible, and that means a PTO winch for me. Not that I'm looking for winching situations - that 40-year old stuff . Too right about the power of a PTO winch. One of the previous owners of my '61 managed to torque the winch mount out of shape and shear off one of the four mounting bolts. The mount on the Ramsey KX-200R is what holds the winch case together - it's a wonder the winch didn't explode! Now that would have been something to see (from a distance). Each coupling in the power train from the PTO to the cable drum appears to be fixed by a square key. Apparently these keys are not easily broken. Any tips on replacing the keys with something more frangible?
Tom Jacoby wrote: The PTO winch clutch is the one between the engine and transmission! The lever on the PTO only engages and disengages the drum. Oops, I meant to say that the lever on the WINCH only engages and disengages the drum.
Jeff Gent wrote: I was uncertain how everything was connected since it's been a while since I pulled it apart for the resto. Ours may be different, especially since I have a Koenig drive and a Rhino winch (a rare bird, Japanese made even -- very curious given the vintage -- but it looks just like a Ramsey on the outside, and does appear to be as old as the vehicle). I seem to remember u-joint couplings with keys to the drive and winch and bolts to the shaft. You could modify a coupling to use a bolt so that it becomes a shear pin or cut the shaft and splice it back together with a piece of tubing and bolts as a coupling using those bolts as sheer pins.
Steven Dunlop wrote: Right. There is a freewheeling clutch on the winch itself, but it cannot be used while the winch is operating. It's like trying to shift with the clutch out. There is a shift lever in the Jeep, too, that engages/disengages the winch from the transfer case. Again, you have to have the clutch in to be able to move the lever. So the procedure is to put transmission in first, xfer case in neutral, winch in gear, and let out the clutch.
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PTO VS ELECTRIC WINCH
Merl wrote: My PTO-driven winch has three speeds forward and one reverse, all driven by that magnificent "Super Hurricane" engine - can an electric or hydraulic winch match that? :-)
Steven Dunlop wrote: Each has its benefits. I have PTO and hydraulic on my two vehicles. In retrospect, I think it was a mistake. Electric or hydraulic winch is safer because the controls can be operated while in view of the drum, unlike PTO winch where you have to be sitting in the driver's seat.
Electric winch will run with engine inoperative, such as when truck is stuck in the river.
Electric winch costs less when the installation expenses are considered.
Electric winch is lighter than PTO winch.
Line speeds are generally comparable between electric and PTO. (The mile marker hydraulic winch that I have has an agonizingly slow no-load line speed).
Electric winch gets hot and stresses the electric system during long, hard pulls. But in most practical trailriding situations, the pull is either easy (as in a flat muddy area) or short (as when pulling out of a streambed or over a steep obstacle). There are exceptions but the fact is that most trail riders today choose an electric winch.
Jeff Gent wrote: If you really want to get a good (or bad) argument going, head over to the jeep tech list and start asking about electric vs hydraulic vs PTO winches. You might as well try to argue about religion. I dig my PTO but if I had none I'd be going electric. They are a well proven technology that can run when the vehicle's engine does not but you have to take care to let them cool down between pulls whereas I could sit there and pull till I run out of gas.
One other thing to take note of...electric winches will stall when forces become too high. Without care a PTO will pull until something breaks and can cause a lot of havoc with snapped cables flying through the air, bumpers being pulled off, etc. The trick I've been told to use is a grade 5 bolt holding the coupling onto the drive shaft. This creates a sheer pin that becomes the weak link and is easily replaced. I haven't done the math to confirm that a grade 5 is the correct thing to use but the use of that bolt as a sheer pin sounds like a good idea (not to mention cheaper than replacing a part of a 40 yr old winch). Winching can be a very dangerous activity as a lot of forces are generated and if something breaks free anything in the way is going to take a lot of abuse. There's some good books out there on 4x4 recovery techniques that some may want to check out.
Jeff Gent wrote: Has anyone tried to run the winch with the xfer engaged. I can't try right now as mine's in pieces but I see no reason why it can't be done. If there's a gear where the line speed and tire advance speed sinc up (line speed changes with the number of wraps) then they can help each other out. I believe I've heard of electric winches being run this way. The main advantage I see is that if the front end's in a hole turning the front tires will help to crawl up over the edge rather than being pulled through the mire. Just curious.
Ronald L. Cook wrote: That is the way we operated a 6X6 drilling rig that I was involved with(my job was to drag the cable). It was a pto winch, but would have never pulled that outfit up the grades we went up without the truck's wheels also pulling.
Steven Dunlop wrote: Since the gear chosen affects both line speed and tire speed the gear doesn't affect the relative ratio.
The transfer case setting lo vs. high does affect tire speed only but even on low the tires vastly overrun the winch.
I have been told that you can get into trouble this way by pulling ahead a little then falling back thereby putting an excessive load on the winch assembly. Also seems like it could lead to a rats nest of cable on the drum. With a well chosen anchor point you should be able to winch out without use of the wheels.
Dirt Man wrote: In regards to using winch with vehicle in 4x4 drive when getting out of a tough spot. In my many past experiences I've always used both at same time. Yes in low range the vehicle will move faster than the winch can pull when the wheels begin to find traction. However once the vehicle can drag it self out on its own the winch is immediately disengaged. There is some risk of a rats nest but if the cable is properly spooled to begin with it will not tangle until it goes slack for several revolutions. And a rats nest is easy to untangle. You just hook the bitter end to a tree, put winch in free wheel pos and back up slowly until rats nest is cleared.
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Edward Landstrom wrote: Another possibility for an overdrive: It used to be a fairly common practice to mount a second transmission in tandem with the main one to provide a super-low gear for such applications as converting a car or truck to a farm tractor. While it wasn't nearly as common, I can also remember seeing one or two that had the second transmission mounted backwards to serve as an overdrive. It would only work in two-wheel drive and there wouldn't be room for it in a CJ, but for a wagon or pickup it might be just the thing you need. In fact, this is probably where I saw it done years ago (too long ago to remember for sure). Are there any how-to articles available (maybe in a 40's or 50's magazine) or has anyone on this list done it? I may even try it myself if I can find out some of the details; what transmission will work, what is the best way to mount it, how should the transmission be modified to get a suitable ratio and ensure proper lubrication, do you have to do anything to the input (now output) shaft to compensate for the pilot bearing that used to support its outboard end, etc.? Even if you've tried it and it didn't work, I'd still like to know what not to do.
Stephen_J_Perialas wrote: Ed, you are showing your age..... I remember the 2 tranny deal for lowering the gear ration on what we used to call a "Duddle bug" old truck or car engine seat and frame used as a farm tractor....
Luke Schulze wrote: One of my neighbors a couple of months ago drug home a "model T" "Duddle bug" He actually called it a duddle bug (I hadn't heard that name again until now) It was really cut and spliced, but had a flat head v8 and dual transmissions, there was basically a small drive haft connecting the two transmissions together. Really kind of interesting to look at. I have also thought about this but could not come up with a good method of connecting the two trannies together...
Jeff Gent wrote: A little FYI, for those interested, Advance Adapters also sells what they call a Ranger that is basically a two-speed tranny designed to go in front of your existing tranny. You can get it in either overdrive or underdrive. It's more expensive than their Saturn OD, at around $1500, and does lengthen the drive train.
Glenn Goodman wrote: Does anybody remember what they used to call a Brownie box? Not the camera, this was a 3 speed box that fit behind the tranny and had an underdrive, 1:1 and an overdrive. There were other configurations available, too, and they used to be very popular in the older big trucks. I drove a couple dump trucks that had it and a buddy put one in his pickup. Another one of those deals where it's only good for 2WD, but still an improvement for the highway. I've been keeping an eye open for many years for one of these. Anybody know anything more?
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Dennis Schosboek wrote: After waiting four months to get my 1953 pickup back on the road I was really disappointed to find a NEW grinding noise from the overdrive. Do any of you have any idea what would cause a moderate grinding noise in the overdrive after the engine had been removed and replaced? No work was done to the tranmission, and there is no noise in 1st, 2nd, 3rd or reverse in high range, but in overdrive low, It sounds like I should head for the garage soon to tear it apart. (again - groan...)
Dr. Vern wrote: Dear Dennis, When you say say stock OD, do you mean a dealer installed Warn overdrive, like this?. (I'm not sure when this was first available):
Or do you mean you have a 2WD pickup with the factory overdrive, which is an extension of the T90? (Sorry, no picture) Or are we talking about what's behind door number three, the Borg-Warner/Rancho overdrive on the transfer case like on Merl's M38A1? This is the kind that requires the rear driveshaft be shortened and can only be used in 2wd:
The only type with which I am familiar is the Warn overdrive. There is a bearing, #5 in this picture, which could be at fault:
That bearing is stationary when shifted into overdrive. It only spins when in normal range. It is probably the first thing to get damaged if the oil level drops too low. It could also be the aft synchro ring, which has no relative motion when in the overdrive position. (See the pair of synchro rings #2 in that same picture, the ring toward the left of the page)
To access the bearing, you will have to pull the PTO adapter, #1 in this picture:
Have you had any trouble with the PTO drive? That is another thought. Now that I think about it, I'd suggest looking there first. Looking at that same picture, check out #4. The part called a PTO Drive Flange is on the same shaft as that suspect bearing. The Drive Flange therefore only spins when the overdrive is in normal range. If the PTO shift mechanism was not fully disengaging, it would make a horrible noise in normal range only, just like you described.
Here is a way to check. Chock the wheels and shift the transfer case into neutral. That way you can "Drive" while stationary. Put the transmission in gear, overdrive in normal, and let out the clutch. See if you can duplicate the noise. If so, then engage the PTO drive. (Make sure the winch drum is not engaged, or play out a bunch of cable so nothing bad happens) When you engage the PTO drive, there will be no relative motion between the overdrive shaft/ drive flange and PTO.
If the noise stops, that was the problem with the PTO not fully disengaging. The PTO shifter mechanism is very simple and easy to repair. If the noise doesn't stop, I'd investigate the overdrive's rear bearing and synchro rings. Hope this helps, and keep us posted.
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Mike Boyink wrote: What I have been offered is the "portion of the PTO that mounts to the T-case along with the shifter". That's all the detail I have. Were there different manufacturers? Were there different versions for front and rear driven accessories? Any other important variations like compatible tooth-counts in the T-case?
Dr. Vern wrote: Dear Mike, You may as well buy it, and then we can sort it out from there.
Most important, make sure it is for a Model 18 t-case. A Model 18 PTO would bolt up on the backside by removing the flat sheetmetal cover held on by 5 bolts. I have posted some pics of my Koenig PTO installation here:
The first link explains how the gear on the back of the T90 is what drives the PTO. That page also explains the detail of my OD/PTO adapter, but that is not important right now. AFAIK, all Model 18 transfer cases had that same 15 tooth Drive Flange. It should not matter whether you have a 26 or 29 tooth transfer case, or even a 6 vs. 10 spline transmission shaft.
The PTO drive I have is made by Koenig. It is fairly flat, like a pancake. You can see what my PTO looks like in those pictures. It is also important to note how the PTO on my jeep hangs down at the approx. 7:00 position, when viewed from behind. Look at Jeff Gent's PTO drive here, for a wagon, and see how it is more horizontal, at approximately 8:30:
Jeff's PTO also has a dogleg in one side, where mine looks like a teardrop. For whatever reason, Koenig made two different versions for the wagons/PU and CJ series. I do not think the style with the dogleg would fit on a CJ. I do not know if my teardrop style would fit on the wagon/PU, but it might.
Ramsey also made PTO drives, and Merl has their catalog here:
Both Ramsey and Koenig made all sorts of PTO drive combinations. You could get one that ran to the rear only. You could get one facing forward only, like mine and Jeff's. There are even versions facing forward and aft, the coveted dual stick models. The rear output on these dual models could either be in line with the transmission, or down low in the offset portion.
I think Braden also made some PTO drives for the Model 18 t-case, but I have never seen one.
It is important that you make sure it is not for a Model 20 t-case. Because the rear driveshaft attaches directly in line with the transmission on a Model 20, there is no way to use the Model 18 style PTO drive. Ramsey made a version that replaces the t-case oil pan. A gearbox would hang down and be driven by the t-case gears directly above it. This unit cut into the ground clearance quite a bit. If you were to find one of these, they are popular with early Ford Bronco fans, so you could probably turn around and sell it and retire.
The last main type of PTO drive was mounted on the side of certain transmissions like the T98 or T18. I think Chevy 4 speeds had it, too. The T90 does not have this access port. I doubt this type is what you will find, as he mentioned a transfer case mount, but you never know. There was a flat plate on the side of these transmissions, approx. 4x6 inches, secured with 6 bolts. When you remove the plate, a special PTO drive box bolts right up and is driven by the transmission countershaft. This type is popular on tow trucks, etc.
One more thing to consider for a Model 18 t-case PTO, it may not be a shaft drive unit. There were pulley drive units, made to run a generator or welder in the bed of a jeep. A hole was cut through the floor for the drive belts. So that could be the kind of PTO drive for sale, so don't buy it sight unseen.
Jerry Alderfer wrote: Dr. Vern covered everything I was gonna mention,
except that there are also ones made for the FC Jeep models, and those were basically the
same, but instead of a direct shifter, they were shifted with linkages or cables...
The most common for the 18 were the single stick Koenig and Ramsey's that went to the rear..
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