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GAS TANKS & FUEL LINE
Ken wrote: Well after putting off the issue and breaking down for the 10th time (seems like it) I finally removed my tank tonight. The inside is not metal looking but more a brown/black. I figure this is what kept clogging my inlet inside the tank. Every time I broke down I would blow the fuel line out and be on way for weeks. I have a 10 gallon tank located in the right rear.
Can someone comment on the following:
I guess there is no fix for the tank?
Are the replacement tanks metal or plastic? Do they mount the same?
Fuel lines are steel...a little harder than brake lines to install? Use shorter lengths with couplers? Can you /should you use rubber fuel lines at tank or carb?
Frank Wood wrote: I called Gas Tank Renu, they advertise in Hemmings, and got an over the phone estimate of $250-$300 for their patented gas tank restoration process. Some sort of PVC coating inside and out. Comes with a lifetime no leak guarantee. 1-800-997-3688 I haven't found a bolt on reproduction yet, has anyone else. That Willys place in Toledo said they would consider getting a poly reproduction fabbed up it there was enough interest. Said it would be around $350. How about all 122 of us call them tomorrow and ask for repro. gas tanks. My original gas line is one solid line, about 10 feet long with many bends. Rubber tubes at both ends. No inline filter. I assume this is OEM. Don't know where to find a replacement line. Has anyone installed a fuel pump back near the tank?
MVP The Herb Farm wrote: Eastwood Automotive sells a Gas Tank Sealer kit for $34.99. ( http://eastwoodco.com ). It consists of a chemical rust dissolver, a moisture displacer, and a tank sealer
Someone on this list made a post about a Ford/Chevy Van tank might fit...I might be imagining this though. You could call that place in Ohio 122 times and disguise your voice each time. :-)
Straight steel fuel line can be purchased from most auto part stores. Eastwood also sells a tube bender for $35 or you might be able to rent/loan one from AutoZone, single flares are all that is needed for fuel lines. I would use rubber tubing on both ends of the fuel line to prevent possible vibration fatigue to the steel fuel line.
Chris Croyle wrote: I was told this was the recommended place (at the tank) to install an electric fuel pump. The factory directions of my after-market fuel pump also recommend this. In fact, the inside of my frame has a few factory holes that I mounted my fuel pump to (no drilling required in my installation). The holes are located near the right tail light of my PU. While your at it, buy one of those $5 disposable filters and mount it after the fuel pump. I mounted mine as follows: tank, short rubber fuel line 2ft or so, fuel pump, fuel filter, rest of steel fuel line. I have a Chevy 350 engine in my application and I'm not sure if that voids the set-up for a stock Willys engine. How's your frame coming along Frank?
mitch utsey wrote: Sure there is. Find an Eastwood catalog, or look in the phone book. I have never had any problem with any of my vehicles with rubber lines, assuming you protect them from snag, heat, and abrasion.
Ken wrote: Once again I am impressed with the knowledge of this group!! Thanks M.V. Percival for the tip on Eastwood! Can you believe I never knew about them and they are located 10 minutes from my house! The kits are still 34.99 which beats a new tank price, modifications, welding etc. I will let the group know how this kit works. HAS ANYBODY USED THIS PRODUCT YET???? THANKS
MVP The Herb Farm replied: Oh...you are going for the easy fix? We were counting on you to call that place in Ohio 122 times about the repro tanks!!! Glad I could help, I learned about Eastwood from another member of this list. As Jerry says, that's what this list is all about...helping each other...with a little BS mixed in here and there.
Rick LeBlanc wrote: Just a note to add to the pile (of BS). I was in my local radiator shop for some sand blasting and noticed his catalogue on replacement gas tanks. Very detailed including line drawings with dimensions. These were all new repros and I was quite surprised at what was available. This may be an option for those on a budget or not obsessed with authenticity. These tanks retailed for around $150 Cdn average. Also available were factory skid plates, sending units, tanks straps and all other tank related parts. I priced and recorded the dimensions of a early DJ tank to mount in the rear of my 2a. Unfortunately the rear cross member on my frame is already committed to that space so it wouldn't quite fit.
David Macbeth wrote: I have an electric fuel pump mounted on the fender-well of my 57 pickup. I put the inline filter just outside the tank so that as the pump pulls the fuel it cleans it before it gets to the line or to the fuel pump. Works good for me. It is a 6 volt pump, by the way, that came from NAPA.
Ken wrote: A new tank for a PU can be obtained from Carl Walks in PA for about $140 which INCLUDES the sending unit. Carl tells me that the three bolt type work well. The single bolt side should be attached. The fill fits properly. Two pieces of extensions (plate steel with holes) will be needed to reach the other two bolt locations (THE TANK MUST BE MORE NARROW). This only applies to pickups (sorry 2A's). Someday real soon I to may also own a 2A :)
Richard Grover wrote: I got a quote from a custom gas tank builder of $300 for a 14 gauge, 30 gallon tank to go into a Willys pickup. I got a Ford Econoline 22 tank from the junkyard for $20 and it looks like it will fit in my Willys pickup, *IF* I can move the left diagonal braces from the bottom to the top of the frame. You can get a repro Ford tank for about $100 from someplace like JCW.
I got a tube of liquid steel for $2.29 that patched my old tank, so the viability of the Ford tank remains unknown. :-)
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FUEL PUMP PROBLEMS
William Cunningham wrote: I put a new fuel pump in tonight and now cannot get fuel to the carb. There is gas in the tank, starts with starter fluid or gas dumped down the carb. I took care to position the lever of the pump on top of the cam lobe (correct terms?), yet no fuel. Any tips on trouble shooting or things done wrong? This is on a 1957 F-head in a FC 150. It ran fine but the diaphragm in the old pump was shot (leaking out of the relief holes). The pump is not marked in or out so I wonder if I have the lines switched?
Ken wrote: I thinks you did switch the in and out...I don't remember how I knew too...but i had to rotate the top bowl 180 degrees.
Ben Page wrote: Take the pump off and blow and suck in the appropriate places. Activate the lever and see if it is generating some suck. Check the valves to see if they are functioning properly (and in the right direction) Good luck. All the best
William Cunningham wrote: Thanks Ben, Here is what I did: removed one fuel line. Stuck a section of hose into the fitting and put the other end into a small container of fuel. Bumped the starter (with the coil disconnected) and watched as the fuel was sucked out of the container. Yup, had the lines switched. Had to buy some new fuel line as the old was too short to reach the new position on the new pump. The rig needed new lines anyway.
Ben Page wrote: Sounds like the jobs done mate<grin> Now all ya have to do is check that that red smelly stuff is getting to the fuel bowl on the carby and awaaaaaaay ya go<chuckle> Goodonyer.
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2ND FUEL PUMP PROBLEM
Jason wrote: I am restoring a 62 pu and am having the same problem. I have got my engine all rewired and started, however I cannot get gas from the tank through the pump to allow the engine to run off of the tank and not the starter fluid!?? Any suggestions. New fuel pump?
David Page wrote: Don't know nothing about a 62, but same thing happened to me when I fired up my '46 for the first time. Turned out to be an air leak where the glass float bowl mated to the fuel pump. I cut a 'donut' out of bicycle tire-tube rubber to make a gasket. Has been working fine ever since. Perhaps this is worth look at.
Brad wrote: You could install an electric fuel pump somewhere between the gas tank and mechanical pump. I understand that this is done to minimize cranking time on restored weekend cars. Just turn the switch and listen until the electric pump stops ticking, then turn the pump off and start the engine.
Rick Stivers wrote: Jason, Let's start with the basics. Disconnect the fuel line from the carb. Attach a rubber hose to the line and feed it into a clear bottle. Prime it with starter fluid and start the engine. Are you getting fuel to the carb?
If so what is the fuel pressure. To test this a fuel pressure gage can be used. I normally just try to stop the flow with my thumb. If I can stop it without much trouble, I look to fix the weak pump. Yes I know this is shade tree to the max but it usually works. If the pressure is good the problem could be the float in the carb or the idle circuit plugged. I'm assuming it won't idle (right?).
No fuel to the carb:
Check for obstructions in the fuel tank or fuel line. I usually blow back through the fuel line into the tank to check for obstructions. There are two problems with doing this. (1) You can't blow backward through the fuel pump so you have to disconnect it and (2) There could be an obstruction that moves out of the way and then blocks it back up again. I was given a BMW once that had about 5lbs of sugar in the tank. The blow test worked fine but then the sugar would settle back down of the pickup tube. I was surprised that the sugar did not dissolve in the gas but it was a pain in the neck to clean it all out. Anyway I digress, a friend of mine choses to disconnect from the inlet to the fuel pump, attach a rubber hose and siphon gas out to ensure it will gravity feed. If it will gravity feed on its own I think this is the best method but I'm not siphoning gas because I hate the taste. Visually inspect the fuel line for damage. A large rock or stump can flatten a fuel line make it difficult to get fuel through. Unless the line is completely closed the engine will usually idle but can cut out and die under extended loads.
If there are no obstructions in the fuel line you need to look at the pump. Identify which is the input and which is the output. Insure they are hooked up correctly. If they are, check the pump for leaks and functionality. If necessary remove the pump and accurate the arm manually. The inlet will develop a vacuum and the out let will pressurize. If the pump is driven by the cam (and I believe it is) it is possible but unlikely that the cam lobe is worn too much to allow it to pump properly. I've only seen this happen once.
If all of this checks out you can try replacing the pump.
Marshall wrote: I hate to be picky buttt, check for vented fuel filler cap and any pin holes in the fuel line that will cause the pump to draw air instead of fuel.
Ron Cox wrote: After going through the same thing in my 62 pu, I would guess that the diaphragm in the fuel pump is too hard to work correctly.
KEITH DEWEY wrote: Jason, sounds like the same problem that someone else had last wk. Check ur connections to see if the lines have been reversed. Also for siphoning gas try a Evenrude fuel tank siphon/primer bulb (the egg shaped squeeze thing on an outboard motor fuel tank supply line) and enough hose at each end to allow u to use a container. Get a plastic fuel line connector, the barbed type so u can hook it up. I think the Bulb only allows fuel to flow one way, so use it to either siphon or blow back into the tank. I haven't tried this but I too don't like the flavor of gas. (Unless they have "almond mocha fudge")
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FUEL TANK REPAIR - POR-15 REPORT
Jeff Gent wrote: So here I go again posting something from another list. This is from a motorcycle list but the topic is rather germane, rusted gas tanks, and y'all already know about POR-15 but this is the first time I've heard of it for tank repair. By the way, I've heard many a tale of woe from this list regarding failed Kream with chunks of it plugging up the gas lines so consider yourself warned. Obviously there will be logistical issues with handling a motorcycle gas tank vs a Willys tank, but the rest should be similar
Michael wrote: Hey all, Update on my rescued Interceptor. I just finished prepping the tank. I DID NOT use crappy Kream. Read on.
The Interceptor I've rescued had sat outside with 1/3 a tank of gas for about a year and a half. The internals were definitely rusty though still tight w/o leaks. I needed to do something about the internals but didn't want to use Kream (because it is not a permanent fix and the problems it can cause when it decides to go are *NOT* fun.) My work with restoring my 1970 Chevelle SS had brought me in touch with a company called Restomotive who produce a product called POR-15. This stuff is amazing. All the resto rags rave and car related Internet sites are a-buzz about it. When used properly, it stops rust *DEAD*. It forms a super hard surface that is very hard to scratch or chip. Even my Evil Twin Joey (the ToeCutter) Thorne, who works on boats, knew about POR-15 and had favorable things to say about it. If a rust repair product can work properly in a Marine/Saltwater environment than it has GOT to be good. Awhile ago, I found a tank prep product kit in their catalog. I have been very happy with other products of theirs, so I have been waiting for an opportunity to try this one. Hey, they even show a V65 Sabre's tank in the catalog. I think that this is a sign.
The kit contains: Marine=Clean (a water based, alkaline cleaner/degreaser, supposedly environmentally friendly but I wouldn't let it sit on your skin for very long), Metal Ready (a mildly acidic solution which completely turns rust into a neutral Zinc Phosphate. Much nicer to work with than the highly acidic hydrochloric solution in the Kream kit. Also, Metal Ready can be saved and reused.), Tank Sealer (which reminds me of POR-15 Silver), a piece of cloth and a disposable brush (to repair pin holes and leaking seams, which I did not need to use, so I cannot vouch for.) A heavy duty version of the kit also has a step that will completely remove a previous tank lining like Kream.
Use of the kit is not as quick as using Kream. YOU MUST TAKE YOUR TIME! If you follow the directions given to you by POR-15 and the suggestions I've outlined here you should be okay.
Cleaning the tank: Seal all openings and vent tubes on the tank. Duct tape is suggested, but it kept coming off of the two large openings on my tank due to LOTs of water. I improvised by slipping the gas cap into a surgical glove and installing it the way it would normally go to seal the top hole. luckily had a large cork the size of the fuel gauge sending unit hole to seal that as well. Using the Marine=Clean, mix one part cleaner and one part boiling water. Pour into tank and then seal it tight. I agitated the solution in the tank by gently rocking it back and forth. Rock and roll. Rock and roll. Make sure the cleaner gets everywhere. The cleaner needs to be in the tank for at least 24 hours, more for heavily varnished or dirty interiors. I would agitate for about 20 minutes, and then let it sit for an hour or two. Then I'd agitate some more and let it sit again, but in a different position than before. After 24+ hours I dumped the cleaner out and flushed liberally with water. I used my bathtub as I don't have good access to an open area w/ a hose. Your wives or SO may kill you for this as it's messy, but not damaging. Flush it well. You want to remove as much alkaline solution as possible for the next step, which is more acidic.
Rust destruction/ "etching":
When I say etching I don't mean like the extremely harsh Kream method. Metal Ready is technically acidic, but pretty mild in comparison to the Kream Kit's (Phosphoric or Hydrochloric Acid?) Metal Ready's main job is to CONVERT rust to a neutral Zinc Phosphate. Any etching properties are pretty minor. Metal Ready takes about 30 minutes to work for a tank in the condition of mine. Heavy rust will take longer. Again I'd aggitate the tank/solution in a slow rocking motion. Turning and rocking and rolling and turning. Watch a movie that you know by heart when you do this. I watched Mad Max again. When the tank is done, remember that you can reuse Metal Ready, so I siphoned it out of the tank. Again, flush liberally with water. You should see black flakes of particulate now instead of rust colored. That is the zinc phosphate converted rust.
********THE MOST IMPORTANT STEP*********
Okay, you're pretty excited now that the rust is gone. The job is going well and you want to keep the momentum going. Before you go pouring the sealant into the tank STOP! The tank **MUST** be absolutely bone dry. POR-15 cures with water. If a single drop of water (or sweat) drops into your pint can of POR-15 while you are working THE WHOLE FREAKING CAN IS WASTED! This tank sealant is the same.
After the flushing out from the Metal Ready step I again siphoned out as much of the water still trapped in the tank as I possible could. Letting the tank sit in the sun won't dry it. Letting it sit for 10 weeks won't dry it. You need to introduce warm moving air to dry the internals. I removed all the tape and stuff sealing the various holes on the tank. I set the tank up with a hair dryer set on low w/ heat blowing into the main hole. I left it blowing warm air into the tank for around 4 hours. The next day I let it blow warm air in half hour intervals about 3 or 4 times. Then, when I was ready to seal the tank, I let it blow cool air for an additional 2 hours. I may have overdone the air thing, but I wanted to take no chances. I wanted this done right.
Sealing the tank:After the hairdryer this step seems anti-climatic. I resealed the openings, this time merely with duct tape. I poured the contents of the sealant can into the tank. It is the consistency of paint with a heavy fumes. DO NOT GET THIS STUFF ON ANYTHING ELSE. If you do wipe it off IMMEDIATELY. It won't come off once dry. I'm serious. Wear gloves, because you'll be wearing a for weeks if you don't. Ordinary paint thinners do not work with it. It can be thinned with the POR-15 specific thinner (not available in this kit as there is no need for it.) Agitate the tank again in slow motions allowing time for the POR-15 to coat the interior. I took about 45 minutes to be sure. On my tank there was no easy way to get the excess POR-15 out due to a collar around the interior of the main filling hole. I used a turkey baister to remove the excess. I also blew compressed air into any small diameter tubes/holes to be sure that I don't develop a restriction or clog due to a cured POR-15 blockage. I set the tank aside to dry/cure. A well ventilated area is a must for this. I installed an exhaust fan in my bathroom window and let the tank sit in there for the night while the most fumes were present. I also let the tank sit upside down so that any excess POR-15 that I couldn't remove would puddle in the air pocket that is always present, even in a full tank of gas so my fuel capacity wouldn't be effected. If you have leaks at the seams of your tank, you might want to consider letting the POR-15 cure so that it puddles into these areas, sealing them forever. The tank is fully cured and ready for gas after 4 days. Mine is completed now with a ROCKING coating ready to go.
So that is how it went. It is a time consuming process. It is not *DOWN AND DIRTY* quick and easy. but guaranteed, if you do it right you'll never have to do it again. While not being difficult it is also not "simple". You do need to take your time and be careful, especially to fully dry the tank with warm moving air. You *CANNOT* be in a rush. Leave about a week of off and on work to complete the task. But the results are worth it. If this coating/finish is anything like the other POR-15 products I've used that nothing short of an A-Bomb will effect it. This is the only permanent fix I know of short of buying a new tank. At the price of $29.95 and a week's worth of time I'd say it is worth it.
here's the info:
http://www.por15.com (full online catalog.)
Division of Por-15, Incorporated
P.O. Box 1235
Morristown, New Jersey 07962-1235
In NJ: 973-887-1999
MAIN OFFICE: M-F 9-5 EST
Steven Dunlop wrote: All, It is far, far easier to take the fuel tank to a good radiator shop where they will hot tank it and braze any leaks. Around here you can get it done for $60 which includes spray painting it black when they are done. You can argue as to which is the more permanent solution. Nothing is permanent, right? Especially in Minnesota where they put salt on the roads. I guess I'd rather have the metal tank than the one with the paint-like stuff inside it.
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POOR GAS MILEAGE WITH HIGH OCTANE GAS
Rick Stivers wrote: Marcelo, First off, with an engine that runs 6.86:1 compression do not run high-octane gas (extra gas). The high-octane fuel is not as volatile as the low octane gas and this will cause your performance to drop and decrease your gas mileage. This is common mistake that many people make. They think that high octane always means more power and better performance.
When I lived in Germany I raced VW Bugs and I didn't understand this. I had a guy I raced against that was always telling me the best places to obtain high- octane gas. I put this stuff in my low compression bug engine and tuned it up to peak performance. On race day he still walked off and left me behind. One day at the library they were selling a book on how to design and build high performance engines. I bought it and spend about 2 days reading up on high- octane fuels and their uses. The next race day I beat him. He was smiling big when I got down to the pits and said, "I see you figured out the high- octane issue". It was a valuable lesson to learn and at least once a week I run into someone that will swear that high-octane makes his or her low-octane engine run better. I'm sure I will get some post to that effect here.
Back to the main issue. These old 4 cylinder engines did not get very good gas mileage to begin with. I think the best I ever got from my L-134 was about 14 miles per gallon and that was going 40mph on the open road.
Ronald L. Cook wrote: Nah, you will get no flack Rick. You are right on. I have people buy avgas from me for their vehicles and all it does is lead up their sparkplugs and make them go slower because of the slow burn. Ya just have to understand fuels.--Ron
Glenn Goodman wrote: The octane thing sounds reasonable. I still have the original data plate on the dash of my M38A1 and noticed the minimum octane number is 68. I have read somewhere that the 134 F and L engines were designed to run on really low grade gasoline. I'd say that regular gas with around 85 octane is plenty rich for that engine.
Rus Curtis wrote: Do I understand ya'll? You're saying that low octane vs. high octane is more volatile and therefore burns (faster?)? I also know a guy who runs avgas for racing and he says he needs it to keep up with the other racers. I used to own a Subaru, I know but it was a 4WD, and it called for a minimum of 93 octane. If I understand what's being said, this gas would be bad for the old 134s?
Rick Stivers wrote: Rus, Funny you should mention a Subaru, since I happen to have an 86 Subaru GL-10 wagon with a turbo charged 1.8Ltr. This engine requires 92 octane gas to prevent premature detonation. With the turbo this engine's compression ratio pushes upwards of 11:1. To bump up performance, and improve gas mileage, they have built a lot of high compression engines in the past. However, as technology has improved, so has the ability to build lower compression engines that produce more power. You can check your owners manual or step down octane until you get a detonation, then move one step back up for best performance. Your old 134 will run much better on low octane fuel.
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BIGGER GAS TANKS
Richard Grover wrote: Welcome Todd. Sounds like you've done a lot of work on your Willys, but have more to go (don't we all). We have kicked around the gas tank question a couple of times. The stock tank is 15 gal. Chris Croyle has a large tank (pictures in the Willys Gallery D4 - take a peek if you haven't already, url below). I think it is from an mid-70's Ford Econoline. I found one like it at a junkyard. It's 22 gal. There is one guy on the list with a 30 gal custom tank. I talked to a custom tank place that thought they could get about 33 gal behind the rear axle. Cost $350. (I still have the stock tank :-)Chris Croyle wrote: I sifted through some archive postings from the summer concerning the oversized gas tank that Todd Murray recently inquired about. The archive postings regarded a debate over my oversize tank and what (other than Willys/Jeep) vehicle it came from. I don't know myself where my tank came from since one other owner(s) down the time line performed the conversion. A member of the list, James Roney, recognized it as possibly coming from an Econoline tank from a Ford van, and he was going to do some research. I don't know if James pursued further with the issue or if he continues to be a part of the list. James, are you out there? The mystery continues....
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Michael B wroe: I don't know about the rest of the country (or world) but a heads up to those here in Arizona. The ether that is added to the gas this time of year (supposedly to reduce CO emissions) is resulting in the deterioration of fuel lines seals and gaskets in older vehicles. The new materials are not effected by it but there have been several vehicle fires attributed to this problem. In the fuel lines it results in the line becoming stiff and brittle. One of the local Willys parts dealers out here has also been doing fair business having to have gas tanks repaired in vehicles he said remained sitting idle too long with this fuel in them throughout the summer months. I believe that if you stick with fuels that have ethanol added for oxygenation then there is no problem. Anyone else got additional info on this?
Jerry Adams wrote: This is the additive "MTBE." I think it stands for something like Methyl Tri Butyl Ether, but don't hold me to it.... It is causing a real controversy here in California, as some of the stuff has been found in the ground water (spills, leaks, etc.) and it is known to cause cancer in lab tests. There is a big push to get it out of the gas here, but it turns out that MTBE is mandated by the Feds, so Calif. can't just ban it.
MTBE's ability to attack the rubber compounds used in older fuel systems was documented several years ago, and there have been numerous reports of vehicle fires due to rotting gas lines, etc. but there was no real effort made to get the junk out of the gas until the link to groundwater contamination was established. Now the environmental types are up in arms over it. I guess that no one gave a damn that people were loosing cherished antique vehicles, but as soon as it became a pollutant, wow, stand by... Personally, I just want it to be banned for whatever reason. I don't much like the smell of gasoline, but the odor made by "oxygenated" gas really irritates my nose and throat.
You would be well advised to replace any gas lines, gaskets, etc. that are older than about five years, as they could be made of materials that are attacked by MTBE. The new hose is compounded to withstand MTBE, so there should be no trouble with it. I had to replace the fuel hose in my wife's 1980 Toyota Corolla because they got soft and started to leak! Thank God I smelled the fumes (as I say, gas with MTBE is really irritating to me) and made sure the car was parked until I got the new hoses installed, so we avoided a fire...
Bill Brennan wrote: MTBE = methyl tertiary butyl ether
Mark C. Johnson wrote: I know that this fuel eats neoprene diaphrams alive in carbs and fuel pumps ana also that it goes stale quickly ( like 30 days or so) leaving a varnish like gum in the bottom. The way around this is using a fuel stablizer if you do not use your engine every few days.
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GAS TANK DRYING
Stephane Rousseau wrote: Doing work on the gas tank. To dry it up, rather then waiting till the fumes evaporate, hook the exhaust to the fill nozzle. Provides drying heat without a source for ignition.
Jeff Gent wrote: I seem to remember the recommended procedure of using some alcohol to dissolve the gas and then adding water to dissolve the alcohol (the basic technique used by those 'gas drier' additives) and pour it all out. Remember, an empty gas can, full of fumes AND air, is far more explosive than a full one without any air.
If the bulk of the metal is solid I'd think the holes could be brazed shut rather easily. Someone here posted something about a gas tank liner made by the POR15 guys that they liked. I've heard less than stellar reviews of Kream, by the way.
David H. Hatch wrote: Hi... About liners for the tank: My radiator-gas tank repair man said, "Liners are last ditch efforts, if the tank is solid, just keep it full of gas, that will prevent [interior] rust".
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This page last updated 07 July, 2001